I've always like the concept of the Summoner, but have hated the PrC for many reasons.
*Summoner is a class name, nor a prestige class name
*The summons grew outdated quickly with no special unique attributes.
*Most were were just random creatures with spells randomly slapped on them.
*It was a prc that didn't reward the summoner for his knowledge of summoning or improve their known summoning spell, but instead just acted like a new list.
*Creatures weren't quite balanced for the animal charmer class.
*Creatures weren't at all balanced in terms of price.
*Some creature were creatures available in the shop, but for some unexplained reason never had new unusual traits
*There was a lack of elemental variety for those that favored elements more than the war between good and evil
*There was even a lack of balance between good evil and neutral.
I have more but I'd like the PrC to take up the most of my post.

Few creatures were removed though most were altered to give them individuality. I think I only remove the succubus, gryphon, and worg. Worg was originally not assigned a level, the gryphon got removed because there were too many birds, and the succubus is a demon summonable by Summon demonic being and I intend to add a bestiary for the spells later.

Neutral creatures no longer get all of the good. They have to learn the epic summon spells to have access to the higher level good and evil summons, which stops Neutral from being the best summoner alignment. Summons of the opposite alignment can also be learned through proper epic summons.

Spell casting summons have a bit more variety in terms of casting. All of them are creatures capable of learning and casting spells after all.

Augment were added which allow casters to summon creatures with spell already cast on them or alter the summon based upon the summon spell the caster knows as well as the Grand summoner level. I couldn't use all of the summon spells, but I did catch most of them

The PrC also gives a bit more room personal summons one might wish to create using what I like to call the tweaking rule. If I wanted to summon gryphons or worgs for instance it would be easier to find a level form them based upon the nice ladder of power.

I did use some of my pending spells, but they were the good ones I was sure would go through. Pending spells can be found here http://imythess.com/index.php?showtopic=14192&hl= .

There is still one problem this PrC redo doesn't fix. The dark unicorn needs to be made a creature in the stables to balance out the large flux of good horses as well as to have a better balance of purchasable creatures in the PrC.

I'll handle Bb coding and pics later.

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Requirements:

o Must know at least 2 summoning spells that summon creatures
o Must own a summoning staff or a wand

Training Costs:

o Level 1: 150
o Level 2: 150
o Level 3: 150
o Level 4: 200
o Level 5: 200

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Level One:

Glyph Summoning:
A grand summoner can use the art of glyph summoning for summoning spells already known and summons learned as a glyph summoner. Whenever a summoner casts a glyph summoning spell, a large glowing rune that represents the caster appears on the ground (or in the air, if that is the case) with shining light in the place where the creature is being summoned to. This glyph is an identifying mark to summoners and no two summoners have the same glyph. The design of the glyph is chosen by the summoner. Each summoned creature may stay for up to 7 posts before being sent back to its home plane.

Augments: Using Glyph summoning you can also augment your summon with spell augments and summon augments. Spell augments are spells known by summoner that enchant the summon as it summoned. Spell Augments last only as long as the spell unless the summon has a shorter duration. Summon Augments alter the summon and are learned only when certain perquisites are met. At level one you can only use one augment when summoning.

Summon Augment:
Name: Aquatic
Effect: Summoned creature(s) gain webbed appendages, the ability to breathe underwater, and incredible swimming skills.
Requirement: Summon Aquatic Being

Name: Reinforced
Effect: You summon one additional creature, but if the creature s is one level less than the highest level you can summon you may summon 2 extra creatures instead.
Requirement: Summon Swarm

Name: Replaced (Pending based off Summon Familiar)
Effect: You summon one less of the group but may also summon a creature you own with the group. Your creature may have spell augments used on it, but is not effected by other summon augments. You our creature also does not return when the rest of the summon group leaves.
Requirement: Summon Familiar

At each level you may choose one creature you would like to summon. Neutral creatures can be summoned by good, evil, or neutral characters. Neutral characters can summon evil and good level 1 summons.

Good:
o Wisp
o Celestial Hound
o Shimmering Leopard
o Lightning Asp

Evil:
o Ghosts
o Hellhound
o Pitch Black Panther
o Corrosive Cobra

Neutral:
o Dire Badger
o Dire Boar
o Wyvern
o Blink Dog
o Cait Sith
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Level 2:

Summon Augment:
Name: Call of the Wild (Pending based off Animal Tricks)
Effect: Summoner may allot three tricks to each summon group.
Requirement: Summon Nature’s Ally

Name: Arcane Flourish (Pending based off Summon Fey Spell)
Effect: Spellcasting creatures may be summoned knowing one epic spell of their element, but one less non-epic spell.
Requirement: Summon Fey

Neutral creatures can be summoned by good, evil, or neutral characters. Neutral characters can summon evil and good level 2 summons.

Good:
o Faerie
o Gargoyle
o Unicorn

Evil:
o Goblin
o Harpy
o Black Unicorn

Neutral:
o Merfolk
o Salamander
o Dire Snake
o Dire Hawk
o Dire Wolf
o Dire Tiger
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Level 3:

Augments:
At this level the summoner may use one summon augment and one spell augment with summonings.

Summon Augment:
Name: Lifeless (Pending based upon Call ghost)
Effect: Summoner may choose to make summons undead.
Requirement: Call ghost


Name: Mundane Endurance
Effect: Summon is made of a durable rock like material that makes them more resistant to physical attacks, but makes them much weaker magical attacks
Requirement: Summon Stone Golem

Neutral creatures can be summoned by good, evil, or neutral characters. Neutral characters can summon evil and good level 3 summons.

Good:
o Puppeteer
o Armidon

Evil:
o Specter
o Manticore

Neutral:
o Dire Bear
o Sphinx
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Level 4:

Summon Augment:
Name: Elemental Shift
Effect: Summoner may change the primamry element of his summon and grant the the summon immunity to that element. Only the element of the Summon elemental spells known can be used.
Requirement: Summon Elemental of desired element.

Name: Overflow
Effect: Summoner may double the number of creatures summoned. This augment applies before Reinforced and does not work with the augment extend.
Requirement: Stampede.

Neutral creatures can be summoned by good, evil, or neutral characters.

Good:
o Lillend
o Pegasus
o Holy Phoenix


Evil:
o Lycanthrope
o Chimera
o Dark Phoenix


Neutral:
o Lizardfolk
o Trent
o Roc
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Level 5:

Upon reaching Level 5 in the Summoner Prestige Class, your summoning wand or staff is magically imbued with the non-epic elemental spell of your choice.

You may also use three augments with summons.

Additionaly you may treat any Summon spells you know such as Summon Fire Elemental and Summon Nature's Ally count as creature groups you can summon. You may replace summons that are also summonable by the spell and add the quantity of creatures that would be summoned


Summon Augments:
Name: Task
Effect: Summon or summon Group leaves after death, dismissal or the completion of the task you give and is not limited to 7 posts. Only one group can still be summoned at a time.
Requirement: Extend Spell

Name: Fallen
Effect: Summoner has access to good summons, but they are the alignment of the summoner. This always uses up a summon augment for good summons.
Requirement: Summon Angelic Being, and Non-Good alignment

Name: Demonic
Effect: Summon is an evil creature no matter what its normal alignment is. The summon gains Detect good and Unholy aura as constant effects. Good creatures additionally have any instances of good an evil switched.
Requirement: Summon Demonic Being, and Non-Good alignment

Name: Sacntified
Effect: Summoner has access to Evil summons, but they are the alignment of the summoner. This always uses up a summon augment for evil summons.
Requirement: Summon Demonic Being, and Non-Evil alignment

Name: Angelic
Effect: Summon is an good creature no matter what its normal alignment is. The summon gains Detect evil and bless as constant effects. Evil creatures additionally have any instances of good an evil switched.
Requirement: Summon Angelic Being, and Non-Evil alignment

Neutral creatures can be summoned by good, evil, or neutral characters.

Good:
o Angel
o Dijinni
o Silver Dragon
o Couatl

Evil:
o Fiend
o Efreet
o Red Dragon
o Basilisk

Neutral:
o Nymph
o Amorph
o Fang Dragon
o Pediplex

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Bestiary of Summoned Creatures

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Wisp Pic
Name: Wisp
Description: Wisps are small, glowing balls of light, usually about 6 to 12 inches in diameter.
Attributes: They can create minor illusions like the spell Minor Illusion and Detect Illusions. It can also make fascinating illusions that can cause a viewer to watch the illusion until someone or something touches or tries to interact with the viewer.

I have one, but I’ll post it later.
Name: Celestial Hound
Description: Hounds native to Celestia that are naturally surrounded by an aura of frigid cold.
Attributes: A holy canine often used by angels. They can use the spell bless as a supernatural ability, and are immune to ice and cold.
Also summonable by: Summon Angelic being

Name: Shimmering Leopard
Description: A powerful golden feline native to Celestia.
Attributes: They are surrounded by a bright aura that is blindingly bright within 20 feet. In sunlight they are instead completely invisible.
Also summonable by: Summon Angelic being

Name: Thunder Asp
Description: Holy snakes native to Celestia.
Attributes: They can turn into surging bolts of lighting to move quickly and they hold a potent venom that paralyzes with electricity.
Also summonable by: Summon Angelic being

Name: Faerie
Description: Faeries are small, timid winged creatures. They possess several magical abilities.
Attributes: They can cast two non-epic spells of their element.
Primary Element: Arcana
Secondary Element: Nature
Also summonable by: Summon Fey


Name: Gargoyle
Description: Gargoyles are statue-like humanoids that can stop their movement and breathing to look just like statutes.
Attributes: They can cast one non-epic spell of their element.
Primary Element: Earth

Name: Unicorn
Description: A mystical creature. Good-aligned unicorns are white in appearance, and are very smart creatures.
Attributes: Unicorns are very speedy and agile, and can use Heal and Greater Heal as spell-like abilities.


Name: Puppeteer
Description: An animated puppet with mysterious powers of life that can animate large objects near it and command them.
Attributes: Can cast three non-epic spells of their element.
Primary Element: Life


Name: Armidon
Description: A large armadillo-like beast with durable scales.
Attributes: They can use the spell Shield other as a supernatural ability.


Name: Lillend
Description: Lillends are mysterious humanoids with a human upper body and a snake-like lower body. They are lovers of art and music and care for little else.
Attributes: Can cast two non-epic spells of their element. While non-hostile, Lillends may charm those who listen to their music.
Primary Element: Arcana

Name: Pegasus
Description: Pegasus are rare, winged equines.
Atrributes: Pegasus are rideable like other equines, but also capable of flight.

Name: Holy Phoenix
Description: Great Phoenixes that reside in holy planes.
Attributes: Seemingly covered in flame, phoenixes are wise and can attack while scorching anything its firey coat comes into contact with. Phoenixes are immune to fire. Additionally they may restore to life a body burned in their holy flames as if Raise Dead had been cast.

Name: Angel
Description: Angels are the most general residents of the holy plane of celestial. They are winged defenders of justice and do their best to fight cruelty and evil.
Attributes: Can cast three non-epic spells of their element. They also have Bless and detect evil as constant effects.
Primary Element: Light
Also summonable by: Summon Angelic being

Name: Djinni
Description: Djinni are creatures of the plane of air that appear as a floating human torso with a cloud-like lower body. They excel in combat with cutlasses.
Attributes: Can cast three non-epic spells of their element. They may also turn into an airy cloud as if from the Gaseous Form spell at will.
Primary Element: Wind

Name: Silver Dragon
Description: Good dragons that live in the colder regions of Dragonspine.
Attributes: They are immune to Ice and can breathe cold blasts of air.


Name: Couatl
Description: Exotic, graceful, beautiful, and intelligent creatures native to Chaon, but not Imythess. They are powerful beings worshiped by some as gods.
Attributes: They cay communicate telepathically and travel freely between the ethereal plane and the material plane.

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Neutral Creatures

Name: Dire Animals
Description: Dire animals are much more powerful and fearsome than there normal counterparts. They are often larger too, and in most cases they are capable of being ridden.
Attributes: Depending on the creature, dire animals have varying attributes. For example, a dire wolf will have bigger fangs and will be nearly double the size of a normal wolf.
Also summonable by: Summon Nature’s Ally

Name: Wyvern
Description: Instead of having forearms, like a dragon, wyverns only have wings. They are much less intelligent than a dragon, able to understand only the basics of a language, usually draconic.
Attributes: Large wings and sharp talons
Also summonable by: Call Wyvern

Name: Blink Dog
Description: Intelligent dogs that use their abilities to usually evade predators, rather then fight
Attributes: Can use the spell blink at will

Name: Cait Sith
Description: A curious intelligent fairy cat gifted with wings and the power to create minor illusions at will. These are often used to pull pranks and jokes.
Attributes: Can use the spell minor illusions at will

Name: Merfolk
Description: These humanoids reside in water, and in place of legs, have a fish-like fin. Although they live in the water, they are sometimes spotted on the shore, but never far away from the water.
Attributes: Merfolk can cast two non-epic spells of their element.
Primary Element: Water


Name: Salamander
Description: Creatures native to the plane of fire that that a long snake like tail beneath their humanish torso. They are good fighters with polearms.
Attributes: Can cast one non-epic spell of their element. They are also immune to fire.
Primary Element: Fire
Also summonable by: Summon Fire Elemental

Name: Sphinx
Description: Not native to the land of Imythess, Sphinxes have the body of a lion and the head of a human, often female.
Attributes: Sphinxes have the strength and ferociousness of a lion, combined with the intelligence of a human. They can also cast two non-epic spells of their element.
Primary Element: Arcana

Name: Lizardfolk
Description: Lizardfolk are an isolated race, due to their awkward appearance. They speak in lizard-tongue, and are well fit for combat.
Attributes: Can cast one non-epic spell of their element. Strange lizard-like qualities give these humanoids great leaping qualities.
Primary Element: Earth

Name: Treant
Description: Treants are very large creatures, who are in fact trees who are capable of movement and communicating. There movements are slow, but in combat, are very strong.
Attributes: Fearful in appearance, treants are large and powerful, and Barkskin is a natural attribute to them.


Name: Roc
Description: A enormous hawk-like bird with a size to rival adult dragons.
Attributes: Due to their size, they are ridable and fierce in combat with their talons. Their mighty screech is enough to make anyone nearby quiver.


Name: Nymph
Description: Beautiful woodland fey with mystical magic of nature.
Attributes: Can cast two non-epic spells of their element. While not in combat, they can also charm a male that looks at them into doing nothing more than staring at their beauty.
Primary Element: Nature
Also summonable by: Summon Fey


Name: Amorph
Description: Changelings of the plane of water. They look may resemble humanoid creatures but always are wet. They excel in unarmed combat.
Attributes: Can cast three non-epic spells of their element. When they cast water spells they may treat themselves as a source of water. They can also turn into a watery form at any time as if the spell liquid form had been cast. They can change their appearance and shape while in liquid form freely.
Primary Element: Water
Also summonable by: Summon Water elemental

Name: Fang Dragon
Description: A powerful dragon that specializes in physical force rather than elemental power.
Attributes: Can breathe fire and has scales that are more durable than most dragons.


Name: Pediplex
Description: A gigantic Centipede with a frightening power.
Attributes: The Pediplex can ‘dissolve’ into a massive swarm of crawling biting insects. Insects may seem weak, but their sheer number make up for it and help he pediplex handle many thinks that would be impossible in it’s normal form.
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Evil-Aligned Creatures

Name: Ghosts
Description: Ghosts are incorporeal and can not make physical contact with things on the material plane.
Attributes: Can use Cause Fear as a spell-like ability.
Also summonable by: Call Ghost

Name: Hellhound
Description: Naturally covered in fire, these hounds are native to Hell.
Attributes: An unholy canine. They can use the spell unholy aura as a supernatural ability, and are immune to fire.
Also summonable by: Summon Demonic being

Name: Pitch Black Panther
Description: Dark panther of dark planes that use their abilities to help them stalk their prey.
Attributes: They are surrounded by an aura of magical darkness with a 20 foot radius, but if they are in moonlight, they are instead completely invisible.
Also summonable by: Summon Demonic being

Name: Corrosive Cobra
Description: An Emerald cobra with corrosive venom that they can shoot out.
Attributes: Their venom is a corrosive acid in the air that can dissolve most materials easily though, it’s not as effective against living creatures. When in the blood stream, the venom is much less potent and causes light bruises and softens the victims flesh to be more vulnerable to attacks.

Name: Goblins
Description: Goblins are truly hideous creatures, who are reckless in the destruction they cause.
Attributes: Summoned goblins are usually equipped with short swords and crude axes. They can also cast one non-epic spell of their element.
Primary Element: Earth


Name: Harpy
Description: Devious feathered creatures with humanoid head and body with wings instead of arms and sharp claws instead of feet.
Attributes: Can cast two non-epic spells of their element.
Primary Element: Wind

Name: Black Unicorn
Description: A frightening mystical creature. Evil-aligned unicorns are dark gray or black in appearance, and are very smart creatures.
Attributes: Black Unicorns are very speedy and agile, and can use Black Bolt and Inflict minor wounds as spell-like ablities.
(Black Bolt Spell pending)


Name: Specter
Description: Specters are incorporeal and can not make physical contact with things on the material plane, but they can damage creatures on the material plane with its icy touch.
Attributes: Can cast two non-epic spells of their element.
Primary Element: Death
(Necromancy/death shop pending)

Name: Manticore
Description: These creatures are very frightful in appearance. They are winged, and have the tail of a scorpion in accordance with their lion bodies.
Attributes: Manticores have the ability to take flight. Also, their scorpion tail is poisonous, and will kill its enemy within three days if the poison is left untreated.


Name: Lycanthrope
Description: Humanoids with animalistic qualities. They are werecreatures like the most commonly known werewolf.
Attributes: They can spread the disease of lycanthrope, have affinity with their animal type, and skill and strength increased based upon their animal type. They are fierce fighters and are even stronger in moonlight.

Name: Chimera
Description: This three-headed creature is very loathsome and deadly. It has the body of a lion, and wings. As for its heads, it has a lion head, a goat head, and a snake head.
Attributes: The lion head can breath fire, the snake head can breathe acid, and the goat head can breathe lightning.

Name: Dark Phoenix
Description: Great Phoenixes that reside in unholy planes.
Attributes: Seemingly covered in flame, phoenixes are wise and can attack while scorching anything its firey coat comes into contact with. Phoenixes are immune to fire. Additionally they may animate a body burned in their holy flames as if Animate Dead had been cast.


Name: Fiend
Description: Fiends are the most general residents of the evil Abyss. They don’t all look the same but they always have bat-like wings, horns, or cloven feet. They enjoy tyranny and cruelty, though they are not fond of being treated cruely.
Attributes: Can cast three non-epic spells of their element. They also have Unholy Aura and detect good as constant effects.
Primary Element: Darkness
Also summonable by: Summon Demonic Being

Name: Efreet
Description: Efreeti are creatures of the plane of fire that appear as a floating red human torso with a cloud-like lower body. They excel in combat with Scimtars.
Attributes: Can cast three non-epic spells of their element. They are immune to fire and can also turn into a burn into a hot vaporous mist at will as if the spell Gaseous form were casted.
Primary Element: Fire
Also summonable by: Summon Fire Elemental.

Name: Red Dragon
Description: Destructive dragons that live in the hotter regions of the Dragonspine as well as in volcanic areas.
Attributes: They are immune to fire and breathe hot flames.

Name: Basilisk
Description: Hideous, lizard-like creatures that are very quick and have a deadly gaze.
Attributes: Basilisks have natural poisonous breath, and if eye contact is ever made with one of these dreadful creatures, petrifaction will result in no more than a matter of seconds.

I have a few things I want to say about the Summon Augments, but I will get to that in a moment…

First off, where is my roc?

Second off, why can’t I have two hellhounds? In fact, why can’t I have more then one of anything without having to have it already on its own? Tell me what the use is for that? Hellhounds work better if there are more! I’m sure they are not the only creature.

Third, why did the Panther become a 1st level creature and why can it no longer heal? And by the way, the third level summons suck horribly…

Forth… oh, so my roc is here now? It’s a big bird that can carry people, why is it all the way up here?! At lest nothing happened to the Treant

Fifth, ok, so my Succubi is now a single Harpy from level 2? And my Fallen Angel (now Fiend) and Angel? I don’t get either one at all now, do I? The entire reason for me taking this PrC is now completely gone with this suggestion. Thank you so very much.

So far I think that part sucks, well, more then sucks… In fact, I would want my 1100 gold back, and the 150 gold I spent on Knowledge Arcana (if the shop order for the next level goes through) back too, if it went through like this. 1250 gold back please... because this PrC is no longer worth the time or money I spent on it. Can't get the time back, but I sure as hell would want the gold back!


Now for the Summon Augments.

First of all, both of the level three ones aren’t even considered Summoning Spells. Veronna explicadly said that any spell with Summon in the title was a summoning spell. It’s Stone Golum, not Summon Stone Golum and Call Ghost simply isn’t summoning anything. You would have to change it to Summon Ghost to fit. In fact, i wouldn't use the Stone Golum at all. Summon Swarm would be much better and simply have it be able to summon as many of a creature as there are levels higher then it, as long as you have that level. So you could have up to five 1st level creatures, four 2ed, three 3rd, two forth, and it wouldn't effect fifth level spells. So someone with Level Three can summon three of one type of 1st level summons, two of a 2ed level one, and only one 3rd level one.

These are the summoning spells of which we have to know two of to get the Summoner PrC:

Normal Spells:
Summon Lightning (which should be changed to Call Lightning and removed from this list)
Summon Rain (which should be changed to Call Rain and removed from this list)
Summon Air Elemental
Summon Hail (which should be changed to Call Hail and removed from this list)
Summon Nature's Ally
Summon Earth Elemental
Summon Fire Elemental
Summon Water Elemental
Summon Swarm
Summon Aquatic Being

Epic Spells:
Summon Demonic Being
Summon Angelic Being

Pending Spells:
Summon Fey
Summon Familiar

Now for having Summon Aquatic Being as the first one… there really isn’t anything wrong with it except that is should not be the only one there. It gives you no real choices and if your character doesn’t spend a lot of time near water it makes little sense for someone to have it. At least have something like your Summon Fey makes it so that they can fly too or perhaps, as you don’t seem to care if they are actually summoning spells or not, a flying spell!

I don’t like the use of either of the ones for level two. First of all learning random spells don’t seem to have any real connection with the creatures listed themselves and second the Summon Nature’s Ally is useless without the tricks, which you haven’t even given a link to so people other then those who already know what your talking about can look at. Basically you are saying that anyone who as Summon Fey and this PrC can have any of their summoned creatures cast any of the spells Imy has as long as they augment it correctly. Instead of using Summon Fey for this, Summon Familiar might work better for magical additions to your summoned creature and perhaps having it be able to cast any non-summon spell the caster knows. Either that or having a set number or type of spells available to each summon listed under it's name and description.

Level four and five’s augments are alright, except for the requirement to be good or evil in order to be able to have an Angel or a Fiend, which is the entire reason I took the Summoner PrC... though I think I mentioned this... In fact, there is no way for me to be able to get either without changing my character's alignment. There should be something there so that neutral characters can gain access to the other summons. Mostly being the removal of the must be good/evil from the two fifth level augment so that a neutral character can take the feat in order to gain access to the Good and Evil summons above level three. Epic spells and having to get the last level should be enough to let them do that at least!

And personally, I don’t see there being any problem with calling the PrC Summoner. There really aren’t enough summoning spells for there to be a non-PrC summoner class…

First off this class only focuses on summoning creatures as such summoning rain doesn't do jack doodles for the PrC and not move the character any closer to meeting the requirement after all the class doesn't allow you to summon any objects, inanimate devices, or weather, hence why I change the requirements. I used a few spells that didn't have summon in their name because they actually say they summon the creature which would also make them summoning spells, of course. If needed we can rename or redescribe said spells accordingly.

I see what you mean about Aquatic being, particularly since it's such a popular spell. I'll rework the the augments and Add something for summon Swarm and Summon familiar.

Good point about the tricks only think that came to mind was the link to the spell. But, as for Arcane flourish, it only allows spell casting summons like faeries to cast an epic spell of their element which is stated clearly for each spellcasting summon. The only summon this may be confusing for is the Specter whose element is Death which I did chance to clarify.

Fallen and Sanctified are level five augments that allow the summoner to summon all of the creatures of other alignments so You don't really have to change your alignment to learn summons of a certain alignment. AD Qualifies for Sanctified which allows her to summon all evil alignment creatures.

There 9 indisputable summoning spells (without the pending) which allow for a wide variety of summons between them since Summon swarm is the only one that summons something relatively specific. That certainly is enough room for summon one to say they have a summoner Class. It's nearly enough to have it's own shop. The earth shop only has 10 spells in it, yet it's still enough for people to call themselves earth mages.
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The Roc is still there, It just got a bit of an upgrade.

It doesn't say you can't have two hellhounds. When you level up you get one of the current level or two of a previous level or double the number of one of your summoning groups.

I removed spells from the dogs and cats and gave them useful abilities in return to give them their own individuality. They were also both placed in level one to be fair to the animal charmer class. Honestly the celestial panther was only the celestial hound with one additional spell, which was poor in more ways than one.

The level three summon spells may be a little bit off I guess, I will look into revising and adding other more interesting creatures, but even so they are still better than the summons that you would get from the original prc at level three, additionally if you don't like the level's summons there is still the option of getting more of a lower level.

No, Your succibi is still a succibi, and also a demon summonable by Summon Demonic being which AD has meaning she can summon it with this class. Given that Fallen is an augment and Angel is still a summon, it still is possible to summon Fallen angels, though AD doesn't yet meet the requirements. More so Given that Summon demonic being allows AD to summon evil beings from the Abyss she can summon Fallen angels using the Epic spell alone and since this class lets you summon from the spells you know as well she can still summon fallen/demonic agnels. If AD were to get summon Angelic being she could learn the good summons as well.

But if you took the class to summon creatures you could summon easily with Summon Demonic Being what was the point in the class. Are you saying you only cared for the summons it gave you rather than the empowerment it granted your summoning? PrCs are meant to give you options yes, but also should build on the abilities you do have and build off of the requirements, after all we don't need people take prequisites that wouldn't fit the character ouside of the class.

You didn't read anything I said about the type of spells, did you? Let me see if I can make it a bit more clear... I see no reason to change the requirement when the changing of Summon Rain, Hail, and Lighting are all pending being changed to Call etc. I never said that they were good for the summoning class and I thought it funny that it counted when I got it. The change I stated in the list of them If you want Call Ghost to count as a summoning spell you should change the name to Summon Ghost. Then it's simple to know what counts as a summoning spell and what doesn't... because it is in the stupid name! *takes a deep breath*

Your description of Arcane Flourish isn't even a real sentence, so you might want to fix that before speaking any more about it being clear.

Fallen and Sanctified have the requirement of being either Good or Evil to use it, that is my only problem with them. AD qualifies for neither. The alignment requirement should be removed completely. It would still be balanced. Good characters can have any good or neutral creature and then get the Sanctify and Summon Angelic Being to get all creatures. Evil characters can have any evil or neutral creature and then get the Sanctify and Summon Demonic Being to get all creatures. Neutral characters can get anything up to level three but only neutral summons for forth and fifth, by what it says right now, indefinitely. No other summons, which means AD looses both her angle and her fallen angel, and the entire reason I took the class is gone. I took it because AD is both good an evil even if I really can't have her aligned that way. The Summoner PrC allowed me to get both good and evil summons and it took me most of a year and 1250 gold to get. I'm not about to let you tell me that I don't get to have them now simply because you decided to redo the PrC. By removing the alignment requirement from the augments the summoner would be required to wait until fifth level and would have to buy both epic level summoning spells to qualify. That's a bit of effort and a good amount of gold.

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I don't see why the roc would jump from 1st to 4th level. It doesn't seem to have that much of an upgrade to warrant that.

A lone panther or any large cat is more powerful then a dog, I don't care is they are celestial, demonic, aquatic or magic. A large cat can eat any lone dog or mutt. There is a reason hounds hunt in packs and panthers don't. The cats should not be on the same summoning levels as the dogs.

Bumping the cats up to 2ed Level and the Chargers up to 3rd would fix both the problem with the hounds and big cats and the sucky selection for 3rd level. Moving the Merfolk summons from 2ed to 3rd would be the best way to handle the neutral selection I think.

The way the thing is said it sounds like you can only have two or more of something if you had one of them the last level and then, with the next level, you could get two (aka a second one of something you already know) the wording has to be redone if you are not going to give examples of how it works like the current PrC does.

I think you lost track of the most important part of what I said there because I spent so much into wording I know I took care of it. Stone Golem and Stampede are summon spells, like it or not their description clearly states that they are summoned (less clearly for the golems since it is both created and summoned) and as such they are spells that summon creatures. I understand that I would be better off renaming call ghost and will likely soon do so, but I am also defending those two spells as viable summon spells because they say they summon creatures, regardless of whether or not summon is in the name. Veronna likely wasn't aware of those contradictions when she informed you that only things with summon in their name were summon spells.

It would have been much nicer if you tried to explain how it wasn't a complete sentence, it took me a while to find the up that had lost it's way in their. It should be quite straight now, though spellcasters are only noted in the bestiary.

:/ I see now that it was a poor Idea to have two effects for augment based on alignment, much too confusing. I made it more clear now and tweaked them a little to give neutral summoners a bit more bang for their buck. I also removed the free spell for the staff/wand but also reduced the price. The PrC does offer all lot, but to fully reap the benefits is costly

Allowing neutral creatures to freely summon high level good and evil creatures not only gives them too much bang for their buck, but also distracts from the the fact that summoning these creatures is an utter act of evil or an utter act of good.

As far as AD is concerned, she wouldn't really have to get rid of anything, particularly since this is an after the fact change. Sure to get more angels or more holy summons sure she'd need summon angelic being.
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O.o A giant bird rivaling huge adult dragon in size! Not that much of an upgrade?

An easy fix, I just say they are more related to wolves than dogs. Wolves after all cost the same the big cats, and large snakes so there will be no problem. Wolves hunt in packs too so, not that much of change.

>.< I forgot to change the chargers back to unicorns. But I think they are good where they are, plus moving mermaids would upstep the balance I planned out as well as the fact that I can't see mermaids besting salamanders that much.

And you were quite right at pointing out what I forgot to put in but thought I did. That is however fixed in the Special note.

And you didn't listen at all to what I said. Spells with Summon in the title are summoning spells, so if there are some spells that are 'supposed' to be summoning spells, make changing their name to correctly lable them a suggestion instead of changeing the rules for the PrC, as I'm already working on changeing some of the names pending Veronna's approval as soon as I get them organized. That's in Projects Under Construction in the Admin area, so it's already in the works as soon as I can get myself focusing on it again properly without giving myself a panic attack/heart flutter thing...

A roc has always been a giant bird and I have enough trouble fitting it in the places AD is in now. Making it bigger doesn't help it at all. It can already carry off a horse and rider, both fully armored. That's what rocs are! According to mythology they can carry off elephants!

Stone Golum should rightly be a construct, not a summons, and your suggestion for Mundane Endurance sounds only like casting Stoneskin on your summons. I would rather get the spell Stoneskin and cast it on the summons then buy an epic spell to do it. Mundane Endurance is a complete waste of gold.

With the hounds and big cats... There is a difference between the cost of something and it's power level. And as both the first and second levels originally cost the same there really is no cost difference between them. One spell more means one level higher, as it is now. Arguing that they cost the same in the shop makes no sense when the levels themselves cost the same. The simple fact is all the big cats should be on the same level and dire tiger is level two so why aren't the others?

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So excuse me while I go and buy all the summons I want from the PrC class as it is now and I shall ignore this topic completely as I think it is a complete butchering of a perfectly fine and nice PrC. Your suggestion can't even go through until the tricks does as you have it now. You have not even given a way possible to make it so that it actually translates properly between your suggestion and the PrC as it is. I'm not the only summoner, even if I am the most active one. This is basically a completely different PrC. So I'm going to go salvage what I can of the one I like as it is before you decide to bug the... out of an admin until they finally decide to agree because they get tiered of you always thinking you are right. 'Ace's stamp of approval'... ya right. You won't see me in this thread again. Please don't mention it to me even, as it just pisses me off and I don't need to be pissed off on here. I have enough other things to deal with in RL. My poor little favorite PrC... I feel sorry for the other people who like it as it is, which I know there are as they have spoken to me about it, who might not get to use it because of this. Thanks, bye.

I admit that I haven't read everything in this topic because there's a lot of it and I'm a busy kid. XD But! I agree with AD, though I'd have been kinder about it. :lol: I think a lot of the things you suggest for changing everything in Imythess are a matter of your personal taste and either not necessary or in some cases a step backwards. It also irks me, as it has AD, how you have an incurable insistence on being right all the time. Since I joined the staff years ago I've always gotten the impression that you feel you think you know what's best for Imythess and want to change everything to suit you, as if you are an admin when you're not. It makes me uneasy to see you as a moderator and using that to pester admins into giving you what you want. :/

Oh dear... <_<
I'm going to close this topic now since I can see it turning into a clusterchuck very quickly.